Christ United Methodist Ministry Center
Interview with Dr.Bill Jenkins, Director at Christ United Methodist Ministry Center
By Isabel Garcia / May 19, 2017
Interview with Dr.Bill Jenkins, Director at Christ United Methodist Ministry Center
By Isabel Garcia / May 19, 2017
During the third week of my internship I decided to sit down with the Director of CMC to conduct an interview to learn more about what a ¨Ministry Center¨ is all about, as well as get to know more about Dr.Jenkins. The interview was conducted in his office. He sat behind a desk while I sat off to the side in a chair. I worked off questions I had prepared ahead of time, and as the interview continued on I created new questions based off where the conversation was going.
My time at CMC can not be replaced, and what I have learned and experienced was just the beginning to what else I can do to contribute, not just at CMC, but with other organization carrying out a similar structure.
CMC bases their ministry off of Matthew 25:35 which says 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ This is the core foundation for the CMC. Dr.Bill woke up in the middle of the night and knew that this verse had something to do with the developing ministry center. As time progressed people came to him wanted to supply these services listed. I was Hungry: Good Neighbor Center (food bank). I was thirsty (spiritually thirsty) : Four ministries - one church plus eight more congregations, 12 churches in total. I was naked: Dress for Success: clothing ministry. I was sick: Nursing clinic run by San Marcos School of Nursing. I was a stranger and you welcomed me in: Safe Harbor (CMC has rooms for people to stay, let alone taking into consideration they took in 5000 Haitian immigrants when no one else wanted to. I was in Prison and you came to me: Prison ministry for woman. A woman associated with CMC helps woman in prison get back on their feet. As you can see God sent all these people to Christ Ministry center plus many others I didn't mention. This was the vision God sent Dr.Bill and it was being fulfilled right before his eyes.
Isabel Garcia (IG): Earlier you talked a little bit about your childhood. How has your childhood shaped you for the things God revealed to you later in life?
Bill Jenkins (BJ): I was very blessed to be born into a family that believed family and faith were far amount. We were core, we were very core. My parents were sharecroppers, white sharecroppers. A lot of people don't know that, which was a form of black sharecroppers, which took the place of slavery actually. Even though I was very very poor, I had a very loving family, a large family, there were seven children. We believed in going to church, my parents both were good christian people, we felt loved, felt like we belonged. We didn't even know we were poor until I started going to school and found out I didn't have everything that everyone else had, but we had things that money couldn't buy. That's helped to shape who I am. And the fact that we were so poor, our next door neighbors were African American and this was Mississippi. I was born in 1948, so I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s, so if you know your American history that's when the civil rights movement was going on. I grew up in a segregated society, but I didn't understand it. The fact that the people living to the side of us were African American we were White. We didn't see any different.
When we went to town, it was very clear, because we saw drinking fountains. White only, colored only, restrooms. Sometimes in restaurants, Blacks couldn't even enter, they had to come through the back door. That did not seem right to me, I don't create segregation, I didn't created the Jim Crow society, but I grew up in it. As a child what can you do, as a high school student what can you do? But I knew that in my life I wanted to treat all people the same. What I now know to be social justice, I didn't know it as social justice back then. But I knew that that was something that I wanted to commit my life to particularly with racial and gender justice. Those were the two things that were very important to me early on. The fact that I knew women were treated as second class citizens and that Blacks were treated as second class citizens in the society that I grew up in, I wanted to do as much as I could to advance the full humanity if you will, of everybody.
(IG): You mentioned segregation among high schools you grew up in, what was your high school experience with that.
(BJ): Well my high school was completely white and we were one of the last classes, I graduated in 1966, Desegregation was just beginning to take place at that time. I went to Delta State University, because I couldn't decide whether I wanted to be a minister or teacher. I also had a love of technology, I got a job at the radio station, and that was the most technically available thing in our small town. I have been able to engage with tech early on. I have lived a trivacational life. So I went to Delta State University, which was known as a teachers college and a state university, which was small only 4, 000 students. I did my students teaching at an all black high school in the Mississippi Delta, that was the life trans-formative experience for me. I grew up in a completely segregated school system in 1966, when I graduated in four years later, where I was trying to break down the barriers, with being one the first white students teachers in the state of Mississippi to teach at an all black high school. It was an interesting experience, a dangerous experience. I had a knife pulled on me one day, a lot of the folks there were not happy to see me, many of them did not want desegregation, they had their own system. The perception was that blacks wanted to go to white high schools and they should've had the right to do that, freedom of choice, but many of the black communities said no, no, no, we're perfectly happy we have our own high school, our own traditions own football team, we don't want to give it up, so I faced some of that.
The main thing was the interactions with the students. I taught history and I always wanted the students to ask me questions, because I was the first white teacher and I began to see some of the perceptions they had, and the perceptions I had, I began to understand what discrimination really was. That's when I decided this was where I wanted to spend my life. So, while I was in college that same year, I was a student pastor. I was very active in the Baptist Students Union, and I would be asked to go out on sundays and go preach, long and behold one of the churches that I went to asked me to be their student pastor full time. (IG) what church was that? (BJ) It was a small church in the Mississippi Delta, South Side Baptist Church. At age 20 I was ordained as a baptist pastor. Next year I will be celebrating 50 years in ministry. So I was able to be a teacher and pastor at the same time and I have always done technology on the same
(IG): When did feel God’s present working in and through you?
(BJ): Before I entered elementary school, children do play acting, if they are going to be a policeman or soldier they play out that role. I can remember when I was at the old house, I don't remember if you knew the TV show the Beverly Hillbillies, and there was a picture of the old house Granny and Jed left, which was just a shack, that was my house. I can remember on Sunday afternoons coming home from church and we would have lunch, I would have my family sit down and I would pretend to be a pastor. I knew early on God was calling me into the ministry. I was role playing being a pastor even before I was in elementary school. I've had a close walk with the Lord. I don't mean to say by any stretch of the imagination I have made enough mistakes for three lifetimes or more, but God has always been a very important part of my life and I felt his presence, I feel his presence today. Like I told these groups, you sat into one of the groups, we are in a dance with the holy spirit, and I don't say that lightly, that would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit and I don't do that, but God's at work here, greater than what I could ever do, and it’s exciting. It's exciting to see God work in and through you. It is really a great experience.
(IG): I will be talking about CMC now. With all the changes with Christ United Methodist Church now called Christ Ministry Center did you ever have any moments where you were fighting God, or you were kind of relying a little bit more with what you can do, and you felt a fall out?
(BJ): There were times, when I felt like I had to do it, I felt like I was gonna let God down if I didn't do certain things. The moment that I realized that this is about Him not about me, was when we had started to invite other churches to use our space. We had our service Sunday morning, in the afternoon other churches would come in, in the evening another church would come in. We got so booked around here. We have 12 churches that worship in this building. Early on the only time slot we had open was from 3-5 pm on Sunday afternoon. So then I get a phone call from a minister and said we are looking for space we understand you rent space out to churches, you are an incubator for new churches. I said I like that, but I said we are so booked I don't think we are going to able to help you. He said we will take what whatever you have, and I said well I don't think you are going to find a good time slot here. He said well our ideal time slot is 3-5 pm on Sunday afternoon, but we will take anything. I realized that didn't just happen. God is about us.
Now I just realized this school is moving out, and that could be terrifying, because they're our biggest tenant. Well low and behold another school as come in already. When I went home and told my wife that our county school is moving out, she said “Oh my goodness what are we going to do financially?” I said I am leaving this up to God. I am not going to get an ulcer over this or lose a minute of sleep. God is in control, God is doing what's being done here. The next day a principle comes in and says they are looking for a place for their school. I don’t know if it’s going to work out, we have to do some code improvements to make it so they can be in but that happens every day around here. I know they did not just walk off the street, the Lord sent them here. That's the dance of the holy spirit I'm talking about.
The the fact that we've been financially independ or solvent I guess that's the right word, from day one is a miracle in itself. We don't get any funding from the methodist church, from the city, or the state or the county. There are organizations that have helped us in this last year, because of the Haitian situation, but before that and now after that we are able to take in enough money to pay the bills, we are not rolling in the dough as the old saying goes. We are not rich, but we are able to break even every month and make improvements to the building which have to be made. It’s walking by faith, not by sight and as the bible says according to your faith so it be onto you and so I have great faith that God is at work here. Whatever we've done, he has done and when I am long gone from here I have every confidence that he is going to finish his work here provided the people here rely upon Him and not upon themselves.
(IG): Are there a couple God moments that have stood out to you?
(BJ): Well I have shared the 3-5pm on Sunday morning and the fact that that school comes in after another school leaves. But the biggest God moment, I don't have a bit of doubt in my mind is when Annita and I become Haitian parents to little Harry, the 18 month old Haitian boy that needs a foster home. That that was God moment. The minutes he walked in our home there was no doubt in my mind that he was an angel sent from God. But there have been many and this thing about the concept of the ministry center. It was almost like the Holy Spirit whispering in my ear ¨this church needs to be a ministry center¨, and I was saying we don't know what a ministry center is.
In 2005 I challenged the pulpit to be a ministry center and they said, “What's a ministry center ?” and I said, “I don't know, but we'll find out!” That sign went up in 2005 (the sign in front of the building), we were still a church then. We didn't know what it was I didn't know what it was. But I knew that God was gonna do something special here, it didn't mean a thousand people were going to be here on Sunday morning, but a thousand people were showing up throughout a week, maybe 2,000. I don't count noses anymore. There was a time when I was a pastor, it was very important to count how many people were in sunday school, how many people were in worship, how many baptisms there were, what the members roll was, um I’m over that. I let God do the counting, I just do the serving. To provide a place where people can get food and help, wellness and spiritual support, those six points and the pin wheel.
(IG): How do you think God changed the Haitian immigrants after staying here?
(BJ): I connected with them back in 2009 when that original group of about 22 come here. They said they needed a home. When they needed a home they meant they needed a family, a place to worship, but they needed a physical place to stay. The first night I said, “This is your home and I am your family, because I know you left your family in Haiti.” till this day they call me dad or father, I don't mean in a religious sense. And I call them my children. Because I had such a long time to work with that initial group, it prepared me when we had that mass exodus that came across the border. Many of them I couldn't meet they were coming in and out of here so fast. Some of them I got to meet very well. But to all of them I felt, I felt a connection, I told someone this story, there was one day that I was up in the loft, there were sixty people in that loft, you had to squeeze in between them and step over them. God said don't treat them like a group, look into their eyes. I realized that everyone of them is a human being, is an individual just like you and me and they are a child of God, I created them, I love them and you need to do the same. That was a transformative experience for me as well, because I was leading with numbers, not like I was counting them. I was treating them like Haitians and refugees, they are Haitians, they are refugees, but they are human beings too. I had many of them coming back and saying they appreciated us very much, because we provided a place for them that no one else would, they would have been on the street. I am grateful we were able to do it, and it wasn't all that I did it was a cast of thousands literally who did it, at least I was able to provide the space for them and fight some of the battles with the city and the neighbors and go out and requests funds.
(IG): What is your perspective of missions, whether long term or short term, or just your idea of doing mission in your own home town rather than going far?
(BJ) We did try to help the Haitians in Haiti and it did not go well. It was because of the red tape and corruption that is implied down there in Haiti. I made this statement that I am not going to try and help the haitians in Haiti anymore, but I am going to help the Haitians that God sends me. Little did I know that he had 5,000 of them that he said Okay. There were enough Haitians here that I can minister to, and by the way I want to point out, I didn't not choose Haiti, Haiti chose me. God chose Haiti for me. If I were to choose a country in the world I don’t think I would have chose haiti, see what I'm saying. But, for whatever reason God has enabled me to connect with haiti derectllyia dnintergettl, my personal goals there is no much I can do for Haiti, I can help them by being an activist for human rights, immigration rights. This last years I have done lots of marching and demonstrating working with government authorities, or doing right now what I call the resistant movements, because I think that those rights are being trampled upon. I am all for scuba justs, human rights, and I see may rights are being taken away, As far as missions take place, I have always been for of missions, but my view have changed to the point of being a part of missions in my own backyard.
(IG): I know you don't have interns come in, what is something you hope I can take away from my internship from anything else?
(BJ): To catch a glimpse of the vision that we are trying to share, it is a needed vision. There are so many churches that are dying. The bible says where there is no vision the people perish. So many churches do not have a vision, there lost, they are trying to do what they have always done and it's not working. Fewer and fewer people not going to church, with the of the exception mega churches, but people are beginning to leave the mega church. To me I would hope, that like talking to those two groups this week. Why would I take two hours out of the day to share that. That's 18 people or 30 people that can take this vision and share it. If you are ever in a position you can say there is an alternative to just dying. There is a church in normal heights that was hanging by a thread, and yet they revitalized and wow look what has happened. I don't know if I have any life skills that we can offer you here. To do social justice you have to get you hands dirty, I hope you can see around here how we get our hands dirty and be proud of the dirt.
(IG): You've talked a lot about how church are dying and you have expressed shocking stats on that, what is the key factor top that.
(BJ): If a church only focuses only on 11 am on Sunday morning and keeping up the building. Those are the two things that will leave the church to do. Not that 11 am on Sunday morning is not important, it is, but there more to it then that, and not that keeping the building up, but if that's your main focus you not really doing what God called the church to do. I think the reason that so many churches are doing is because they have lost their way. What do I do I invite my neighbors to 11 am on Sunday morning and they come, but they are looking for a relationship with Jesus Christ, they are looking for a relationship with God. Wonderful sermons, beautiful worship, you walk in, but it's like going to the movies, you walk in you walk out, you know it's over. What the church needs to do is find a way to become a seven day a week church. When people say what is a ministry center the short answer is, is a seven day a week church. That doesn't mean that the preacher is preaching 24 hours day, seven days a week, when a person thinks that way that's just shows the problem right there. The 24 hours day stuff we do around here is feed people, clothe people, and love people. It's just as important as anything else.
(IG): How would tell a church that this an alternative, ministry center, but if they don't have the space to potentially have all these ministries how can they serve outside of their church?
(BJ): I realize the model we came up with, by the way we didn't come up with this model it's been around 2,000 years, Jesus came up with it. James said, “Be doers of the word not hearers only.” We are hearing the word, that's what we're are doing on Sundays morning, that's number two on the pinwheel, spiritual thirst. What about the other five point, yes if you are a small church, what can you do. Do what you can do to be a serve to the community. No matter how big or small, don't try to engage people for something you can get out of them, serve people who can do absolutely nothing for you, because if I am doing stuff to jst trick people to come to church at 11 pm on Sunday morning I am not loving and serving them.
To be true ministry it's what you do for people who can do nothing for you. If you saw yesterday sometimes i can get a little upset, when we try to help people and they sorta betray us. We work so hard around here I am so protective of what Jeannetta, and my wife anita have done around here, I don't like it when people take advantage of it. It’s like when you see someone of the streets, do you give them a dollar, sometimes I give them a dollar or twenty dollars, and I don't know if they are going to get the first meal they have had in two or three days or are they going to get coc and sniff it up their nose. I am disappointed if that happened. Jesus didn't give us the option, but when we do help people, like they incident we had yesterday where this guy was going above and beyond, breaking all the rules, threatening other people, scaring people, then that bothers me.
Right here (Points to the window behind him) I put a mesh behind this stain glass, I love this stain glass. It’s the only stain glass that i've seen of Jesus praying in the garden. We were offering a food ministry here at one point, a lot of them were street people, some of them had mental problems. The city told us we couldn't do it any more unless we had a worship service, because it would then be like a potluck. There was a man who was homeless, might have had some mental problems and took a brick from that shelf and through it through that glass window. That's hard to take,me when you're trying to help people and they get angry and they break something as sacred as a stain glass window. Now it wasn't this one, but you never know, some people bite the hand that feeds them. Jesus didn't give us the option to help the poor as long as they didn't miss behave they said help the poor period. Let it to him.
(IG): Through my time that I have been here, I have been able to meet lots of people, and I have been able to connect with the different ministries here and One thing that I noticed off the bat was that was I would meet a ministry, and they would know all about their ministry , but wouldn't really know much about the other ministries. like oh, I worked with the clinic and I would refer them to the food bank, here are the times that they come in. Do you have an idea of how you can connect the ministries, so that people understand the importance of the ministries so that they can collaborate together.
(BJ): My wife has said the same thing, we do have an intern coming in from the seminary in the Fall and that’s going to be her primary responsibility. Its called synergy. Do you know what synergy is? Where the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts, that's what happened around here. I don't mean to make excuses, but a couple of the ministries here are a new like the clinic is new, and the food ministry is relatively new, they are so busy getting the stuff up and going they know there are other things going on in the building, for example the food ministry is here Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and the clinic is here in Thursdays. So, that makes it a little bit difficult for them to have interaction with each other, I see it, I see the big picture and I see how the s takes place, and you're absolutely right, we just have not done the best job at capitals on that. And part of that so that we have been working on the refugees. You're absolutely, thank you for what you're doing to make the groups become aware. First is the clothes ministries, she was here yesterday, you meet her, but she is typically here two or three days a month. She is ware of a lot of what we have been doing, but she gives us the key to the clothes closet. She is aware of a lot of what we have been doing but she might not be aware that the food ministry is not the old food ministry that she knew it was. That there's a new one here.but you're absolutely right, my wife has expressed the same concern that one of the main things we are going to do with the intern in the fall is to get her to coordinate things and help us to communicate internally that's one of our favorites.
(IG) Where do you see CMC in 10 years, or what are your hopes?
(BJ) I hope we will continue to provide ministry to this community, I hope that it will be a place where people will begin to look and begin to call it my church, people who would never come to worship services. We areca center in the community an anchor in the community This is where people come for spiritual food, not just physical food. I hope that we would also be a role model for other churches. People who lost their way who has no vision. At least we can say here is a vision, it might not be the victim, might not be your vision, but by all means how can any thing you see that we are doing, grip off of us, do your own thing create your own ministry center .One size does not fit all.
(IG): Can you share a little about what you hope to achieve in Washington DC?
(BJ): Im very proud to be affiliated with a group called Sojourners. They were founded in 1970, Jim Walles was the founder. What sojourner is is an organization of faith and justice. They are leader in communities, minister, social worker, activities, community organizers, government officials. Anyone who is living in the intersection of faith and juts, that's where I Iive. Sojourner us the premier organization not in the United States, but around the world. Jim Walles is respected, i have seen him on meet the press, meet the nation all these programs, and people respect him because they know he speaks truth to power. If they invite a democrat on, they know the democrats they know before the democrat goes on what he is going to say before, if the invite a republican on, they know what the republican is going to say before he speaks. Jim Walles tell the truth they know that they can count on him, they might like what he says, they might might not like what he says. But he is willing to speak the truth. Journeyers is very much involved in social justice, but it have a faith more center. So, it's not just a bunch off creates, it's minters and social justice of all kinds. In 2014 they started something called the sojourners summit. They invited 50 of what they called the social justice leader, and they invited me and I was very honored to be invited it was at Georgetown. I went there as a participant I had the chance to meet a lot of people, Dr William Barber, Jim Wales. This year, they contacted me as asked me to be one of our sections. That is a huge honor from where I'm concerned. They want me to share the concept of what I call safe harbor, it's the concept that has come out of our experience with the Haitians. The number one need that people need is shelter. When people came to use, sure the needed food, clothing other necessities, but above all else of they didn't have shelter they were sleeping on the streets. We were able to provide shelter to I belie 307 was the max that was her in one night. Can you image 301 people sleeping on the pulse. And then this loft idea that we have, we are zoned for six, there is a lot of difference between 3017 and 6. So the city says you can have six, then I get to thinking how can I work around this, How can we provide shelter, beds a roof over someone's heads, so we don't run into city burden cods. We came up with this idea, let's make three hundred beds available. It might not be in the building they might be in a room at a UCC church in La Jolla. It doesn't have to be a church, by the way it can be an organization. They adopt a person, refuge , it can be a child whose parents were town away in Mexico, it can be traffic teen, trying to get away from a pimp. It can be a homeless student who's sleeping in their car. See, that's what we call it safe harbor but it's basically taking the experience we have here and expanding it, there are lots of empty beds that can be occupied by people. You might have heard of sanction 8 churches, Sanctuary churches are when they take in undocumented people and place them into churches and there the federal government's takes the people out of the church. Not many churches can do that, thank God for the ones that do. IT doesn't have to be documented it can be document It doesn't have to be for two years it can be for two weeks, some people would love to have a place to stay for two weeks. So, Safe journeys I will be expanding this idea, there will be 300 people there, they are from all over the United States. we already have a wendiet clade save harbers.net. For the safe harbors network. As this idea developed we hope it will become program, another role model for churches to help those in need.
(IG): Is there anything else you would like to add?
(BJ): I think you covered the waterfront. Very good questions thank you for that. And thank you for being here. I feel like I have not been able to provide guidance, but you have taken initiative i know you have connected with Jeanette, I am glad you are here, we would love to establish a relationship wit HTH in the future as well.
My time at CMC can not be replaced, and what I have learned and experienced was just the beginning to what else I can do to contribute, not just at CMC, but with other organization carrying out a similar structure.
CMC bases their ministry off of Matthew 25:35 which says 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ This is the core foundation for the CMC. Dr.Bill woke up in the middle of the night and knew that this verse had something to do with the developing ministry center. As time progressed people came to him wanted to supply these services listed. I was Hungry: Good Neighbor Center (food bank). I was thirsty (spiritually thirsty) : Four ministries - one church plus eight more congregations, 12 churches in total. I was naked: Dress for Success: clothing ministry. I was sick: Nursing clinic run by San Marcos School of Nursing. I was a stranger and you welcomed me in: Safe Harbor (CMC has rooms for people to stay, let alone taking into consideration they took in 5000 Haitian immigrants when no one else wanted to. I was in Prison and you came to me: Prison ministry for woman. A woman associated with CMC helps woman in prison get back on their feet. As you can see God sent all these people to Christ Ministry center plus many others I didn't mention. This was the vision God sent Dr.Bill and it was being fulfilled right before his eyes.
Isabel Garcia (IG): Earlier you talked a little bit about your childhood. How has your childhood shaped you for the things God revealed to you later in life?
Bill Jenkins (BJ): I was very blessed to be born into a family that believed family and faith were far amount. We were core, we were very core. My parents were sharecroppers, white sharecroppers. A lot of people don't know that, which was a form of black sharecroppers, which took the place of slavery actually. Even though I was very very poor, I had a very loving family, a large family, there were seven children. We believed in going to church, my parents both were good christian people, we felt loved, felt like we belonged. We didn't even know we were poor until I started going to school and found out I didn't have everything that everyone else had, but we had things that money couldn't buy. That's helped to shape who I am. And the fact that we were so poor, our next door neighbors were African American and this was Mississippi. I was born in 1948, so I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s, so if you know your American history that's when the civil rights movement was going on. I grew up in a segregated society, but I didn't understand it. The fact that the people living to the side of us were African American we were White. We didn't see any different.
When we went to town, it was very clear, because we saw drinking fountains. White only, colored only, restrooms. Sometimes in restaurants, Blacks couldn't even enter, they had to come through the back door. That did not seem right to me, I don't create segregation, I didn't created the Jim Crow society, but I grew up in it. As a child what can you do, as a high school student what can you do? But I knew that in my life I wanted to treat all people the same. What I now know to be social justice, I didn't know it as social justice back then. But I knew that that was something that I wanted to commit my life to particularly with racial and gender justice. Those were the two things that were very important to me early on. The fact that I knew women were treated as second class citizens and that Blacks were treated as second class citizens in the society that I grew up in, I wanted to do as much as I could to advance the full humanity if you will, of everybody.
(IG): You mentioned segregation among high schools you grew up in, what was your high school experience with that.
(BJ): Well my high school was completely white and we were one of the last classes, I graduated in 1966, Desegregation was just beginning to take place at that time. I went to Delta State University, because I couldn't decide whether I wanted to be a minister or teacher. I also had a love of technology, I got a job at the radio station, and that was the most technically available thing in our small town. I have been able to engage with tech early on. I have lived a trivacational life. So I went to Delta State University, which was known as a teachers college and a state university, which was small only 4, 000 students. I did my students teaching at an all black high school in the Mississippi Delta, that was the life trans-formative experience for me. I grew up in a completely segregated school system in 1966, when I graduated in four years later, where I was trying to break down the barriers, with being one the first white students teachers in the state of Mississippi to teach at an all black high school. It was an interesting experience, a dangerous experience. I had a knife pulled on me one day, a lot of the folks there were not happy to see me, many of them did not want desegregation, they had their own system. The perception was that blacks wanted to go to white high schools and they should've had the right to do that, freedom of choice, but many of the black communities said no, no, no, we're perfectly happy we have our own high school, our own traditions own football team, we don't want to give it up, so I faced some of that.
The main thing was the interactions with the students. I taught history and I always wanted the students to ask me questions, because I was the first white teacher and I began to see some of the perceptions they had, and the perceptions I had, I began to understand what discrimination really was. That's when I decided this was where I wanted to spend my life. So, while I was in college that same year, I was a student pastor. I was very active in the Baptist Students Union, and I would be asked to go out on sundays and go preach, long and behold one of the churches that I went to asked me to be their student pastor full time. (IG) what church was that? (BJ) It was a small church in the Mississippi Delta, South Side Baptist Church. At age 20 I was ordained as a baptist pastor. Next year I will be celebrating 50 years in ministry. So I was able to be a teacher and pastor at the same time and I have always done technology on the same
(IG): When did feel God’s present working in and through you?
(BJ): Before I entered elementary school, children do play acting, if they are going to be a policeman or soldier they play out that role. I can remember when I was at the old house, I don't remember if you knew the TV show the Beverly Hillbillies, and there was a picture of the old house Granny and Jed left, which was just a shack, that was my house. I can remember on Sunday afternoons coming home from church and we would have lunch, I would have my family sit down and I would pretend to be a pastor. I knew early on God was calling me into the ministry. I was role playing being a pastor even before I was in elementary school. I've had a close walk with the Lord. I don't mean to say by any stretch of the imagination I have made enough mistakes for three lifetimes or more, but God has always been a very important part of my life and I felt his presence, I feel his presence today. Like I told these groups, you sat into one of the groups, we are in a dance with the holy spirit, and I don't say that lightly, that would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit and I don't do that, but God's at work here, greater than what I could ever do, and it’s exciting. It's exciting to see God work in and through you. It is really a great experience.
(IG): I will be talking about CMC now. With all the changes with Christ United Methodist Church now called Christ Ministry Center did you ever have any moments where you were fighting God, or you were kind of relying a little bit more with what you can do, and you felt a fall out?
(BJ): There were times, when I felt like I had to do it, I felt like I was gonna let God down if I didn't do certain things. The moment that I realized that this is about Him not about me, was when we had started to invite other churches to use our space. We had our service Sunday morning, in the afternoon other churches would come in, in the evening another church would come in. We got so booked around here. We have 12 churches that worship in this building. Early on the only time slot we had open was from 3-5 pm on Sunday afternoon. So then I get a phone call from a minister and said we are looking for space we understand you rent space out to churches, you are an incubator for new churches. I said I like that, but I said we are so booked I don't think we are going to able to help you. He said we will take what whatever you have, and I said well I don't think you are going to find a good time slot here. He said well our ideal time slot is 3-5 pm on Sunday afternoon, but we will take anything. I realized that didn't just happen. God is about us.
Now I just realized this school is moving out, and that could be terrifying, because they're our biggest tenant. Well low and behold another school as come in already. When I went home and told my wife that our county school is moving out, she said “Oh my goodness what are we going to do financially?” I said I am leaving this up to God. I am not going to get an ulcer over this or lose a minute of sleep. God is in control, God is doing what's being done here. The next day a principle comes in and says they are looking for a place for their school. I don’t know if it’s going to work out, we have to do some code improvements to make it so they can be in but that happens every day around here. I know they did not just walk off the street, the Lord sent them here. That's the dance of the holy spirit I'm talking about.
The the fact that we've been financially independ or solvent I guess that's the right word, from day one is a miracle in itself. We don't get any funding from the methodist church, from the city, or the state or the county. There are organizations that have helped us in this last year, because of the Haitian situation, but before that and now after that we are able to take in enough money to pay the bills, we are not rolling in the dough as the old saying goes. We are not rich, but we are able to break even every month and make improvements to the building which have to be made. It’s walking by faith, not by sight and as the bible says according to your faith so it be onto you and so I have great faith that God is at work here. Whatever we've done, he has done and when I am long gone from here I have every confidence that he is going to finish his work here provided the people here rely upon Him and not upon themselves.
(IG): Are there a couple God moments that have stood out to you?
(BJ): Well I have shared the 3-5pm on Sunday morning and the fact that that school comes in after another school leaves. But the biggest God moment, I don't have a bit of doubt in my mind is when Annita and I become Haitian parents to little Harry, the 18 month old Haitian boy that needs a foster home. That that was God moment. The minutes he walked in our home there was no doubt in my mind that he was an angel sent from God. But there have been many and this thing about the concept of the ministry center. It was almost like the Holy Spirit whispering in my ear ¨this church needs to be a ministry center¨, and I was saying we don't know what a ministry center is.
In 2005 I challenged the pulpit to be a ministry center and they said, “What's a ministry center ?” and I said, “I don't know, but we'll find out!” That sign went up in 2005 (the sign in front of the building), we were still a church then. We didn't know what it was I didn't know what it was. But I knew that God was gonna do something special here, it didn't mean a thousand people were going to be here on Sunday morning, but a thousand people were showing up throughout a week, maybe 2,000. I don't count noses anymore. There was a time when I was a pastor, it was very important to count how many people were in sunday school, how many people were in worship, how many baptisms there were, what the members roll was, um I’m over that. I let God do the counting, I just do the serving. To provide a place where people can get food and help, wellness and spiritual support, those six points and the pin wheel.
(IG): How do you think God changed the Haitian immigrants after staying here?
(BJ): I connected with them back in 2009 when that original group of about 22 come here. They said they needed a home. When they needed a home they meant they needed a family, a place to worship, but they needed a physical place to stay. The first night I said, “This is your home and I am your family, because I know you left your family in Haiti.” till this day they call me dad or father, I don't mean in a religious sense. And I call them my children. Because I had such a long time to work with that initial group, it prepared me when we had that mass exodus that came across the border. Many of them I couldn't meet they were coming in and out of here so fast. Some of them I got to meet very well. But to all of them I felt, I felt a connection, I told someone this story, there was one day that I was up in the loft, there were sixty people in that loft, you had to squeeze in between them and step over them. God said don't treat them like a group, look into their eyes. I realized that everyone of them is a human being, is an individual just like you and me and they are a child of God, I created them, I love them and you need to do the same. That was a transformative experience for me as well, because I was leading with numbers, not like I was counting them. I was treating them like Haitians and refugees, they are Haitians, they are refugees, but they are human beings too. I had many of them coming back and saying they appreciated us very much, because we provided a place for them that no one else would, they would have been on the street. I am grateful we were able to do it, and it wasn't all that I did it was a cast of thousands literally who did it, at least I was able to provide the space for them and fight some of the battles with the city and the neighbors and go out and requests funds.
(IG): What is your perspective of missions, whether long term or short term, or just your idea of doing mission in your own home town rather than going far?
(BJ) We did try to help the Haitians in Haiti and it did not go well. It was because of the red tape and corruption that is implied down there in Haiti. I made this statement that I am not going to try and help the haitians in Haiti anymore, but I am going to help the Haitians that God sends me. Little did I know that he had 5,000 of them that he said Okay. There were enough Haitians here that I can minister to, and by the way I want to point out, I didn't not choose Haiti, Haiti chose me. God chose Haiti for me. If I were to choose a country in the world I don’t think I would have chose haiti, see what I'm saying. But, for whatever reason God has enabled me to connect with haiti derectllyia dnintergettl, my personal goals there is no much I can do for Haiti, I can help them by being an activist for human rights, immigration rights. This last years I have done lots of marching and demonstrating working with government authorities, or doing right now what I call the resistant movements, because I think that those rights are being trampled upon. I am all for scuba justs, human rights, and I see may rights are being taken away, As far as missions take place, I have always been for of missions, but my view have changed to the point of being a part of missions in my own backyard.
(IG): I know you don't have interns come in, what is something you hope I can take away from my internship from anything else?
(BJ): To catch a glimpse of the vision that we are trying to share, it is a needed vision. There are so many churches that are dying. The bible says where there is no vision the people perish. So many churches do not have a vision, there lost, they are trying to do what they have always done and it's not working. Fewer and fewer people not going to church, with the of the exception mega churches, but people are beginning to leave the mega church. To me I would hope, that like talking to those two groups this week. Why would I take two hours out of the day to share that. That's 18 people or 30 people that can take this vision and share it. If you are ever in a position you can say there is an alternative to just dying. There is a church in normal heights that was hanging by a thread, and yet they revitalized and wow look what has happened. I don't know if I have any life skills that we can offer you here. To do social justice you have to get you hands dirty, I hope you can see around here how we get our hands dirty and be proud of the dirt.
(IG): You've talked a lot about how church are dying and you have expressed shocking stats on that, what is the key factor top that.
(BJ): If a church only focuses only on 11 am on Sunday morning and keeping up the building. Those are the two things that will leave the church to do. Not that 11 am on Sunday morning is not important, it is, but there more to it then that, and not that keeping the building up, but if that's your main focus you not really doing what God called the church to do. I think the reason that so many churches are doing is because they have lost their way. What do I do I invite my neighbors to 11 am on Sunday morning and they come, but they are looking for a relationship with Jesus Christ, they are looking for a relationship with God. Wonderful sermons, beautiful worship, you walk in, but it's like going to the movies, you walk in you walk out, you know it's over. What the church needs to do is find a way to become a seven day a week church. When people say what is a ministry center the short answer is, is a seven day a week church. That doesn't mean that the preacher is preaching 24 hours day, seven days a week, when a person thinks that way that's just shows the problem right there. The 24 hours day stuff we do around here is feed people, clothe people, and love people. It's just as important as anything else.
(IG): How would tell a church that this an alternative, ministry center, but if they don't have the space to potentially have all these ministries how can they serve outside of their church?
(BJ): I realize the model we came up with, by the way we didn't come up with this model it's been around 2,000 years, Jesus came up with it. James said, “Be doers of the word not hearers only.” We are hearing the word, that's what we're are doing on Sundays morning, that's number two on the pinwheel, spiritual thirst. What about the other five point, yes if you are a small church, what can you do. Do what you can do to be a serve to the community. No matter how big or small, don't try to engage people for something you can get out of them, serve people who can do absolutely nothing for you, because if I am doing stuff to jst trick people to come to church at 11 pm on Sunday morning I am not loving and serving them.
To be true ministry it's what you do for people who can do nothing for you. If you saw yesterday sometimes i can get a little upset, when we try to help people and they sorta betray us. We work so hard around here I am so protective of what Jeannetta, and my wife anita have done around here, I don't like it when people take advantage of it. It’s like when you see someone of the streets, do you give them a dollar, sometimes I give them a dollar or twenty dollars, and I don't know if they are going to get the first meal they have had in two or three days or are they going to get coc and sniff it up their nose. I am disappointed if that happened. Jesus didn't give us the option, but when we do help people, like they incident we had yesterday where this guy was going above and beyond, breaking all the rules, threatening other people, scaring people, then that bothers me.
Right here (Points to the window behind him) I put a mesh behind this stain glass, I love this stain glass. It’s the only stain glass that i've seen of Jesus praying in the garden. We were offering a food ministry here at one point, a lot of them were street people, some of them had mental problems. The city told us we couldn't do it any more unless we had a worship service, because it would then be like a potluck. There was a man who was homeless, might have had some mental problems and took a brick from that shelf and through it through that glass window. That's hard to take,me when you're trying to help people and they get angry and they break something as sacred as a stain glass window. Now it wasn't this one, but you never know, some people bite the hand that feeds them. Jesus didn't give us the option to help the poor as long as they didn't miss behave they said help the poor period. Let it to him.
(IG): Through my time that I have been here, I have been able to meet lots of people, and I have been able to connect with the different ministries here and One thing that I noticed off the bat was that was I would meet a ministry, and they would know all about their ministry , but wouldn't really know much about the other ministries. like oh, I worked with the clinic and I would refer them to the food bank, here are the times that they come in. Do you have an idea of how you can connect the ministries, so that people understand the importance of the ministries so that they can collaborate together.
(BJ): My wife has said the same thing, we do have an intern coming in from the seminary in the Fall and that’s going to be her primary responsibility. Its called synergy. Do you know what synergy is? Where the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts, that's what happened around here. I don't mean to make excuses, but a couple of the ministries here are a new like the clinic is new, and the food ministry is relatively new, they are so busy getting the stuff up and going they know there are other things going on in the building, for example the food ministry is here Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and the clinic is here in Thursdays. So, that makes it a little bit difficult for them to have interaction with each other, I see it, I see the big picture and I see how the s takes place, and you're absolutely right, we just have not done the best job at capitals on that. And part of that so that we have been working on the refugees. You're absolutely, thank you for what you're doing to make the groups become aware. First is the clothes ministries, she was here yesterday, you meet her, but she is typically here two or three days a month. She is ware of a lot of what we have been doing, but she gives us the key to the clothes closet. She is aware of a lot of what we have been doing but she might not be aware that the food ministry is not the old food ministry that she knew it was. That there's a new one here.but you're absolutely right, my wife has expressed the same concern that one of the main things we are going to do with the intern in the fall is to get her to coordinate things and help us to communicate internally that's one of our favorites.
(IG) Where do you see CMC in 10 years, or what are your hopes?
(BJ) I hope we will continue to provide ministry to this community, I hope that it will be a place where people will begin to look and begin to call it my church, people who would never come to worship services. We areca center in the community an anchor in the community This is where people come for spiritual food, not just physical food. I hope that we would also be a role model for other churches. People who lost their way who has no vision. At least we can say here is a vision, it might not be the victim, might not be your vision, but by all means how can any thing you see that we are doing, grip off of us, do your own thing create your own ministry center .One size does not fit all.
(IG): Can you share a little about what you hope to achieve in Washington DC?
(BJ): Im very proud to be affiliated with a group called Sojourners. They were founded in 1970, Jim Walles was the founder. What sojourner is is an organization of faith and justice. They are leader in communities, minister, social worker, activities, community organizers, government officials. Anyone who is living in the intersection of faith and juts, that's where I Iive. Sojourner us the premier organization not in the United States, but around the world. Jim Walles is respected, i have seen him on meet the press, meet the nation all these programs, and people respect him because they know he speaks truth to power. If they invite a democrat on, they know the democrats they know before the democrat goes on what he is going to say before, if the invite a republican on, they know what the republican is going to say before he speaks. Jim Walles tell the truth they know that they can count on him, they might like what he says, they might might not like what he says. But he is willing to speak the truth. Journeyers is very much involved in social justice, but it have a faith more center. So, it's not just a bunch off creates, it's minters and social justice of all kinds. In 2014 they started something called the sojourners summit. They invited 50 of what they called the social justice leader, and they invited me and I was very honored to be invited it was at Georgetown. I went there as a participant I had the chance to meet a lot of people, Dr William Barber, Jim Wales. This year, they contacted me as asked me to be one of our sections. That is a huge honor from where I'm concerned. They want me to share the concept of what I call safe harbor, it's the concept that has come out of our experience with the Haitians. The number one need that people need is shelter. When people came to use, sure the needed food, clothing other necessities, but above all else of they didn't have shelter they were sleeping on the streets. We were able to provide shelter to I belie 307 was the max that was her in one night. Can you image 301 people sleeping on the pulse. And then this loft idea that we have, we are zoned for six, there is a lot of difference between 3017 and 6. So the city says you can have six, then I get to thinking how can I work around this, How can we provide shelter, beds a roof over someone's heads, so we don't run into city burden cods. We came up with this idea, let's make three hundred beds available. It might not be in the building they might be in a room at a UCC church in La Jolla. It doesn't have to be a church, by the way it can be an organization. They adopt a person, refuge , it can be a child whose parents were town away in Mexico, it can be traffic teen, trying to get away from a pimp. It can be a homeless student who's sleeping in their car. See, that's what we call it safe harbor but it's basically taking the experience we have here and expanding it, there are lots of empty beds that can be occupied by people. You might have heard of sanction 8 churches, Sanctuary churches are when they take in undocumented people and place them into churches and there the federal government's takes the people out of the church. Not many churches can do that, thank God for the ones that do. IT doesn't have to be documented it can be document It doesn't have to be for two years it can be for two weeks, some people would love to have a place to stay for two weeks. So, Safe journeys I will be expanding this idea, there will be 300 people there, they are from all over the United States. we already have a wendiet clade save harbers.net. For the safe harbors network. As this idea developed we hope it will become program, another role model for churches to help those in need.
(IG): Is there anything else you would like to add?
(BJ): I think you covered the waterfront. Very good questions thank you for that. And thank you for being here. I feel like I have not been able to provide guidance, but you have taken initiative i know you have connected with Jeanette, I am glad you are here, we would love to establish a relationship wit HTH in the future as well.